ZGMF Officers - Post-Garma

Or the side that actually seems to work together. Despite the disagreements among the Earth people you guys are doing pretty well.

As I said, you haven't given me any reason to believe that I won't be wasting my time and our resources trying to secure belfast in our name.

Our naval power is key in taking it? Well I'm sure they'll feel same way, and as we've come to realize, they're naval fleet is far superior. Now whether that's a technological learning curve, or our lack of commitment to the seas, we can't say for sure. But if they bring the hammer down, and as smart as Jojo is, I doubt they won't attempt to take Belfast back.and I don't want to spend my time playing this game holed up trying to defend it.

Unrelated to Belfast...

I know for a fact that prior to Odessa, the feds attack New York, we did last year. They did so with considerable naval power and federation (I was in task force) won it. I would like to dedicate a little more to the amphibious assault/ss group.

On top of requestin the 2 jukons, and recon gaw, would like eventually like some acguys, and a lvl 3 Grabro to aide in operations. Having Grabro and Aspalus would be a terrifying force, and worth considering. Not just for thinning out their naval forces, but for many tactical strikes against their coastal bases.

I would like to mention that while it is entirely possible that if you do capture Belfast's war factory, you guys need to sit on it for at least two weeks in order for the War Factory to make enough RP to properly defend a Fortress. Before those Sundays you would need to spend personal RP to make stopgap defenses. At this point you are at a Dilemma.

It is the same dilemma I used against the Disco Fleet. I expected them to read my side notes in the old EFSF spreadsheet screenshot. Combined with Kuriboh's taking of Texas Colony, they went and wasted nearly a week's worth of personal RP to repair Texas Colony along with some minor defenses.

Then they got their ass whooped by Bomer Fleet.

The dilemma is where to put their money. They can rebuild their fleet and leave their base vulnerable or they can fortify Texas Colony and nurse their fleet until they are ready to rebuild again. The EFSF however have the good fortune that space is very linear and can see any invasion attempt early on.

Not so much for Earth. Thanks to the Paradrop action and more than one way to enter Europe (Jojo paradropped from East Arctic or something into Malta) the bunch of you will have to sit on Belfast for a while to make it work.

You have to calculate for yourselves how much RP you would need and the minimal amount of days it would take for you guys to fortify Belfast. During that minimal period of days where you fortify, the EFGF will be doing whatever it wants unless you want to move your NPC forces around without any restocking option.

You also have make a decision on what happens if someone accidently destroys the War Factory.

Just my two cents.

Their naval fleets are "superior" only insofar as on a individual ship-for-ship basis, they are capable of loading more anti-sub snails than we are at loading anti-snail fighter planes. In team battles this kind of thing, I believe, doesn't play much of a factor - basically, if our naval forces have ground and air forces backing them up, we are perfectly capable of matching them in big battles.

If you don't want to defend Belfast that's fine, but there are plenty of people who would be perfectly willing to do so. I just don't see any reason why we would forsake a very defensible, valuable fortress and give up an extra patrol in the region, especially with the estimated cost of what such an attack is going to cost. We are investing time and RP into the base by trying to attack it, it's going to leave a pretty bitter taste in my mouth OOC and IC-wise if it's just scorched.



Paradrops are slightly more predictable in this instance because any possible counterattack against Belfast could not be successfully completed by a Paradrop alone. Medea paradrops are much less scary than Gaws, they would have to coordinate their assault with some kind of naval or ground force already in the area.



I would argue that what we've come to realize is that 10+ Don Escargots > Jukon II's with no air or ground support.



It's fairly likely that after the attack we would be sitting (theoretically) on some base SOMEWHERE for about a week to repair PCs and ships, it may as well just be Belfast.

Woot! Discussions are fun.

No one, to the best of my recollection, has disagreed with the idea of an SS fleet. Chris wanting to run off and play “special forces” alone isn’t anything new, and I think it’s the only way you’ll truly enjoy OYW. So long as you stick with us until Belfast, and don’t entirely cordon yourself off in an “SS versus MAF & TAF” mentality, you have my support.

The task force itself would probably work best as a single regular Gaw, with two refit Jukons. Excelsior lacks the MPCs and hangar capacity of a regular Gaw, making it an unfit backbone. It is also best put to use coordinating/disrupting large operations. The SS fleet sounds more like a smaller fast-response and terror unit.

MS makeup, in my opinion, should be a combination of Xavier + Acguys and Goggs in the Jukons, and Doms and Daren + Finus in the Gaw. Round it out with a mobile armor.

Of course, if we know Jojo and Hirsch want Xavier dead, perhaps we shouldn’t give them the bait ;).

Onto the bigger issue: Belfast!

Matthew hit on the major points I would address, regarding Malta and Manila as examples of our inadequate ability to defend. Malta never was defended. Manila was far more costly to the Federation than to Zeon (even accounting for the loss of Morrigan, which was unnecessary). Manila, if anything, was an example of why defense works.

Belfast is still a different beast, though…

Matthew, again, addressed the fortress issue. Taking it will be harder than Malta (hence the massive combined operation), and defending it, presumably easier. Presumably, because again, Malta was never defended.

Now to address some of the other concerns raised…

Claim: Belfast will be difficult to defend.
- Europe will be in our possession if Belfast falls. Regardless of where they attack from, any force the Federation brings against Belfast will push through patrols to get to us. It will then be backed up by zero services once in the region against our 2 x for half price.

Provided the Federation does want to assault Belfast, it is left with two options: destroy or capture. Destruction means sitting outside our walls and bombarding us with shells, ala Manila. However, we’ll have (A) graded turrets and Gaws to respond to this tactic. Capture means assaulting the base with MS. And where the Federation excels in ships with large aircraft hangars, they are severely limited in the number of MS they can field.

Claim: The Federation possesses a better sea presence.
- The Federation owes its sea power to aircraft, not ships. Himalayas and Big Trays possess hangar capacities unequaled by Zeon ships. Not true for our fortresses, however; an airfield allows us to stock a comparable number of Dopps. Services let us purchase another 10 x Dopp for 100 RP in friendly territory. Gaws can hold another eight in their hangars, and possess 24 x AA turrets. A fully stocked airfield, the purchase of services, and two to three Gaws serving as a “European defense fleet” would render any movement against the base a fool’s endeavor.

Claim: The Federation has multiple points of entry into Europe from which they can paradrop.
- Federation paradrops do not pose a significant threat to Belfast. Attacks of this nature from the Atlantic, West Arctic or East Arctic are not a threat. Medeas have limited armament and hangar capacity, and would be eaten alive if they attempted to attack an adequately-defended fortress alone.

Claim: Belfast will need to be defended after it is captured, meaning we’re just sitting on it for two weeks
- “Sitting on” Belfast for a week or two isn’t a bad move. Our ships will need to repair for a week after the assault, no matter if we destroy or capture. Might as well repair at Belfast, where they’ll be repairing and defending simultaneously. PCs will not need to stay on the base at all, considering the number of NPCs we will have purchased by the time we hit Belfast. 5000 RP from raids, two or three paychecks, and our existing fleet make for a more than adequate defense force.

Following that period, keeping a 3-Gaw defense fleet stationed at Belfast (as previously mentioned) doesn’t seem like overkill. Europe will become a fortress region for us, with mines and war factories pumping out resources and helping to prepare for Odessa. It’s worth that type of investment in our defense, if it means we’re making the Federation spend twice as much RP to even look at the region in an aggressive manner. Gaws are nice because they can paradrop from bases into anywhere in the region, so they'll be able to respond to a Federation fleet the instant it moves into our airspace. The same tactic would work if we can topple East Asia and hold all of Eurasia.

For that, I would think a smaller attack force is in order. I guess that's why I'm not too overly concerned about the dilemma proposed by Chan. Once we have Europe under our foot, I think we can still field enough ships and PCs just one week later to continue offensive efforts.

I guess that kind of segues back into the discussion of long term goals…

Why I favor attacking Europe in the first place has already been stated. We’re not playing Future Imperfect; there are obvious advantages to holding territory in this game. Destruction alone won’t win the war. Ketara himself has stated defense will play a major role in this version of OYW, and I believe Manila and New Amsterdam are prime examples of this statement.

Creating two Zeon PC-dominated regions out of Europe and East Asia would give us strongholds where we can focus our defensive efforts. We would be able to start building large numbers of PC mines that can be relatively easily and quickly defended by regional defense fleets. At the same time, we’ll free up our PCs to bring an offensive effort against the Federation – one backed up by the resources we’ll be mining, and MS produced by war factories. It seems like the best possible combination of both worlds.

Moving onto some miscellaneous remarks…

1) This story-based attack on New York will, indeed, require a response. One akin to California, I would assume? MAF, TAF and SS will all pitch in on its defense. In that regard, it seems to have no long term bearing on the number of ships we would commit to the SS task force. What I do favor in the SS fleet is what I mentioned above.

2) New Delhi keeps drawing my attention; same with East Asia. I’ve mentioned it a couple times before this post, and several times in this post already. I just think that once we’ve got Europe secured, East Asia is still a viable target. Perhaps more so, if we’re considering creating a PC Zeon-based mining stronghold, since we can personally own three of the four current compounds in East Asia, whereas we can only own two of the four in Europe.

3) I want to thank Matthew for taking the time to ask the regular Zeons about the pooling of funds. We don’t want to take it for granted. Addressing the issue of MS teams – I think we’d do best to start a thread on the regular forums about what each person ultimately wants out of their MS team. We could then pool funds, purchase accordingly for Belfast, and then divide the MS amongst them once all is said and done. This seems like the easiest solution, logistically, rather than trying to move funds between twelve different people. We’ll also have a paycheck immediately following the assault, so we can replace many of the MS that were lost.

4) Since we know we want to go against Belfast, and we want to his the South American fleets, it’d be nice if we could consolidate the plan/timeline I stated to make it happen in two weeks, rather than three. Just seems like an awfully long time to ask our PCs to go along for the ride. I've never been a fan of one or two people dictating the actions of the entirety of a side in any RPG, and I'd rather not begin now.

One possibility is that we could simply rely on RP donations, rather than PCs, for everything up until Belfast. The main draw of having PCs in the fleet itself is that they could make it across the Atlantic with the fleet, and not have to worry about patrols. Of course, if they're repairing, they can try to push into the Atlantic or some other ocean to escape North America without too much threat of getting intercepted...

If we let the PCs go on their own, they could harass the Federation in the two or three weeks between White Base and Belfast. This might alleviate a lot of the concerns about letting the Federation run amock while we prepare for Belfast.

Sound plausible?

… and fuck…

Looks like Matthew replied during the time it took me to write this post! Seems he and I are in relative agreement, though. My only comment…

10 + Don Escargots versus a Jukon II is actually generous. Try three or four. S’why we don’t want Xavier running off all on his lonesome, unless he's got a Gaw to defend the skies.

And I am done! Merry Christmas, fellas! Let’s try and get at least the next week of operations worked out by this evening, if at all possible. That way we can present our plan to the regular Zeon, and let them make observations for the remainder of the weekend.

Chris and I talked on AIM to alleviate some of his concerns about the current plan, and I think he raised a good point about the West Arctic.

Personally, I'm now in favor of going over the West Arctic instead of the Atlantic, en route to Europe. Gonna go get my Christmas Eve on for a few hours, but will try to give a final chime in before going to bed tonight.