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Post by gaplant on Nov 15, 2009 14:39:36 GMT -5
Thanks Kale. =) From your numbers it would seem that your numbers have all your planned purchases taken care of by the "East Asia Company" (wheeeeee), which is cool. Honestly if I were you, I would go for a Jukon and a Gallop this week at least for sure, because when you get the Gaw that will give you the triple threat of air - land - water and allow each one to cover the others' blind side.
Also, is there any way you could work in Zaku Cannon's into your purchases for the first week? In the event that they do get a siege off you're going to need some All Range stuff. I've been kind of zoned out lately, but is the general idea behind what you guys are doing to chill at Manila until you get everything ready and then strike out against SEA HQ?
Other than that it looks great. Are there any other suggestions on what I (and the personnel I described in my operation plan) should be doing this week, or can I go ahead and present my plan to the side board?
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Kale
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Post by Kale on Nov 15, 2009 14:53:48 GMT -5
I think we should wait and get Chris's and Zero's input after they read my previous post, before we move ahead with posting on the regular forums. It'd be really, really helpful if we could present all of this to our people at once. Make it look like we're moving forward as one, instead of two different arms from two different militaries. However, I don't want to wait much past 5:00 EST, since we really do need to start getting people moving.
I like the idea of getting some cannons Monday, so long as we can move them freely onto one of our ships when it comes time to leave Manila. Alternatively, it'd be kind of cool if Daniel joined with Zaku Cannons to support his Gouf at range ^_^.
I will note that I crunched the numbers on Trailblazer real quick. If we include contributions from everyone on Earth not involved in Manila...
Ando Shoji: 285 RP | 250 RP
Ernest Till: 301 RP | 100 RP
Mark Dresner: 734 - 138 = 596 RP | 250 RP
Markos Steiner: 125 RP | 125 RP
Noelle Everett: 476 RP | 125 RP
Rhett Paruta: 250 RP | 150 RP
Yuji Takeshi: 50 RP | 25 RP
Monday: 2083
Following Monday: 1025
Total: 3108
Since the numbers for Trailblazer come in at around 2080 RP, that's basically 1000 RP unaccounted for. We could split it between Manila and the Atlantic, devote more to Trailblazer, or give Manila the "umph" it needs to attack in week two of the plan. Alternatively, we could attempt to fund a third group that will start hitting their supply fleets right now.
... and of course, there's always the chance that not everyone I listed will be up for donating funds. So at the very least, it gives us a "cushion."
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Zero
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Post by Zero on Nov 15, 2009 14:56:28 GMT -5
I'm in favor of the idea, I already said I was willing to give 200RP over in order for a Jukon to be purchased. I really don't have much more to say about it.
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Post by gaplant on Nov 15, 2009 15:08:53 GMT -5
What's funny as that almost as soon as I saw you list your numbers I realized I hadn't listed concrete numbers of my own, so I immediately went to do that, and as I was finishing the last touches on modifying my first post you had already posted this, Kale. <3
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Kale
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Post by Kale on Nov 15, 2009 15:20:27 GMT -5
I've been texting Chris, and he still has objections to Trailblazer. Best I can get out of him, it's "a waste of resources in the short run" and putting that RP into an attack fleet would benefit us in the long run.
Mind explaining in simpler terms what Trailblazer is all about? I've read the post, but I'm having a hard time putting my finger exactly on it. Probably no fault of your own, I'm just slow in following =(.
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Post by gaplant on Nov 15, 2009 15:33:19 GMT -5
Basically it consists of the following activities spread out over about a week and a half:
1) Organize personnel into a cohesive unit.
2) Strike out into the Atlantic, and completely destroy enemy patrols.
3) Build a Fortress to "bridge" the Atlantic.
Bridging the Atlantic would directly link North America and Africa, which has the following benefits:
1) Contested Territory means no enemy patrols, which means that we would have a much easier time shuffling people between North America and Africa if we needed to for any upcoming missoins.
2) An Island / Coastal fortress would be -very- defensible even with a limited number of troops, and could serve as an important resupply station / forward command post for any tactical naval operations we would conduct in the area.
3) Over the long-term, a base in the Atlantic would also give us a rally point from which we could potentially assault the lone EF fortress in the area (Azores) to gain complete control of the area.
4) Most importantly, it would serve (overall) as our first true offensive operation, and force them to fight on our terms. They aren't going to just leave the fortress alone, and that's the idea - we make them fight where we want to fight them. IE, we allow our land-oriented mobile suits (Zaku and Goufs, etc) to fight their mobile suits on land (away from that horrible blue devil Aqua GM) and allow our fighters to confront their fighter screens in similar numbers as they can field.
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Kale
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Post by Kale on Nov 15, 2009 15:35:59 GMT -5
Hmm. Chris's main objection seems to be the long run tax on player RP. If we're building a fortress that won't be resupplied by side RP, he thinks it's a liability.
I guess the alternative he's forwarding is to thrust that 3000 + RP into an offensive fleet, and use that to attempt to capture an enemy base. But I don't think we're in any position to attack the Azores (especially without flight support), and the draw of Trailblazer seems to be its strategic location in the Atlantic.
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Post by gaplant on Nov 15, 2009 15:42:42 GMT -5
I would put forth that it doesn't require so much RP as it does player participation, because after the base is established the upkeep cost should be fairly minimal. (IE, unless they're spending thousands of RP a week to attack it it can probably be maintained by myself and a couple other players, especially if our land-oriented PCs are able to defend it every now and then)
Additionally, if we were to add a War Factory (cost: 2000 RP), it would also be able to pay for the base' upkeep. It's a significantly large initial investment, and honestly not one I plan on making, but if it were ever constructed...
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Kale
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Post by Kale on Nov 15, 2009 15:57:06 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from. I guess the question then, is, could these players and resources be better spent hitting Federation supply fleets in the Indian and Atlantic and Pacific?
What I wonder is, with us having just played defense for the last three or four weeks, would it be better to concentrate on one wing of the army totally going offense? Amass a big assed fleet capable of taking on any patrol in the game (like you're planning). Then go into a place like the Atlantic, clear it of patrols, decimate its supply fleet, and then hop onto the next ocean?
I'm not saying I'm 100% against this (to be honest, playing devil's advocate both ways, here and on the phone w/ Chris) but it does seem to be an option. My only apprehension would be that it doesn't exactly give the EF in your area a place to rally against. They could just continue hitting RF and ruining our resources and go unchecked. We ruin their resources, they ruin ours, and it's basically left to East Asia (where I honestly don't know if we have an advantage) to decide the ground war.
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Zero
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Post by Zero on Nov 15, 2009 16:08:48 GMT -5
Before we get into talks of fighting a war consiting of them ruining our resources and us ruining their resources. I'd like to reiterate something, a very important factor in the One Year War.
Zeon cannot win a war of attrition.
That's all we would end up fighting, a war of attrition. We wouldn't make any solid victory, we'd hit their side RP and they'd hit our side RP and if we completely neglect East Asia they'll dig in harder and steam roll the region and claim in favor of the EF, which means that come Odessa we would have East Asia under Feddie control and Europe contested.
While attacking their supply fleets is a good way to attack at their side RP, it's not a war I think we would be able to win. The whole reason why the opening day's of the OYW happened as fast as they did was because the Federation has more resources then Zeon. Zeon had the technological advantage, but the lack of resources pretty much humped us.
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Kale
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Post by Kale on Nov 15, 2009 16:17:49 GMT -5
*nods* That's been constantly on my mind. S'why I really like your idea with East Asia. Zeon lost the war about two months in. We're starting this game well past that point, and honestly, at a pretty hefty disadvantage because of it. So it's up to us to learn from those mistakes and rewrite history.
East Asia plan is, I think, necessary. I think with the buildup/defense strategy it's also entirely plausible.
I also like Matthew's idea for Trailblazer, to be honest. I'm just trying to hit every possible angle before we commit (also before I have to leave for the night). Is it better for us to try and directly combat the Federation's vast resources, than attempt to move forward with the war with an offense/defense in the Atlantic? Personally, I say no, for the reasons Zero just outlined. If they're hitting our resources at the same time we're hitting theirs, it'll come down to an issue of player RP. And ultimately, their player RP gets better than ours and their technology gets stronger than ours quicker than is helpful...
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Post by gaplant on Nov 15, 2009 16:24:35 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from. I guess the question then, is, could these players and resources be better spent hitting Federation supply fleets in the Indian and Atlantic and Pacific? What I wonder is, with us having just played defense for the last three or four weeks, would it be better to concentrate on one wing of the army totally going offense? Amass a big assed fleet capable of taking on any patrol in the game (like you're planning). Then go into a place like the Atlantic, clear it of patrols, decimate its supply fleet, and then hop onto the next ocean? I'm not saying I'm 100% against this (to be honest, playing devil's advocate both ways, here and on the phone w/ Chris) but it does seem to be an option. My only apprehension would be that it doesn't exactly give the EF in your area a place to rally against. They could just continue hitting RF and ruining our resources and go unchecked. We ruin their resources, they ruin ours, and it's basically left to East Asia (where I honestly don't know if we have an advantage) to decide the ground war. My thoughts on this: I'm not against hitting supply fleets, I want for us to do that, but quite a lot of the TAF units (Zaku II S, Gouf, Zaku II K, etc) are severely hampered in naval operations. Also, taking fleets into those zones would open us up to the same kind of stuff that sank Jojo (repetitive Patrol attacks, guerrilla warfare, cockblocking player raids, etc) and we would eventually have to stop the campaign to travel to another zone to repair our ships, which leads your second point. A big ass fleet would be nice, but I personally think that since we have already sunk so much into defending Manila (Chris spent at least 1200 RP on Wednesday, and very nearly died on Thursday) that we shouldn't just drop it. Additionally, there are issues of timing (how to get everyone together in one fleet) and the whole thing being a resource race, which I agree with Zero that we can't win. The beauty of the design is that if they decide to keep hitting the RF mines we can easily shift personnel back to defend it and not feel like the fortress is vulnerable. I would actually prefer they attack the base for fun times and because I am 100% confident in my ability to lead a defense of it. |
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Kale
EFF Officer
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Post by Kale on Nov 15, 2009 16:28:17 GMT -5
Again, that all sounds like a solid plan to me, and good justification for carrying it out. Chris didn't exactly give a thumbs up, but I think it's safe to go ahead and post our intentions on the player's board. Mind making yours first, and then Zero or I will chime in with East Asia in a reply?
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Zero
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Post by Zero on Nov 15, 2009 16:28:19 GMT -5
We really do need a good offensive action, something that gains us ground. I'm not saying it has to be Trailblazer, but Trailblazer is currently the only proposed operation that would give us an offensive victory of sorts. We would ruin their Atlantic Patrols, possibly even hitting their fleets in the Atlantic, and turn the region contested.
The reason Zeon lost the war was partly because they got stuck doing nothing but defending their mining resources while the Federation developed advanced technology. If we secure the Atlantic, it also offers more protection to North Africa, because it becomes one less region the Federation can travel easily through to Africa.
Hell, if we could, I'd suggest taking the Indian Ocean as well, but that's far off dreams.
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Kale
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Post by Kale on Nov 15, 2009 16:29:42 GMT -5
The Indian was first in my sights, before the idea of taking East Asia became something of a reality. It would be nice if we could hammer something out, regarding the Pacific and Indian both, in the next few weeks.
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